What Now? Jews and the Ukrainian Revolution 2014: Interview with David Fishman

Josef Zissels at Maidan.

On Thursday, April 24, YIVO will present “What Now? Jews and the Ukrainian Revolution 2014,” a conversation with Josef Zissels, the preeminent leader of Ukraine’s Jewish community, and moderator, David Fishman. Zissels and Fishman will discuss the political situation in Ukraine today, Ukraine’s relationship to Russia and the European Union (EU), and what Ukrainian Jews and minorities can expect from the new government.

Read Josef Zissels's speech at Maidan.
Attend the event.

YIVO Public Program Director Helena Gindi interviewed David Fishman, professor of Jewish History at The Jewish Theological Seminary about the situation in Ukraine.

HG: Late last month, Josef Zissels, the Chairman of the Vaad [The Association of Jewish Organizations and Communities (VAAD). of Ukraine], was asked about the Jewish perspective on events in Ukraine, and he answered, "There is no Jewish perspective. There are Jews on both sides of the divide." This was before Russia’s annexation of Crimea and its military involvement in Ukraine. How involved were Jews in Maidan? What was their opinion of Russia's annexation of Crimea?

DF: Jews, you know, are a very small minority in Ukraine today. I wouldn't say they played a prominent role in Maidan numerically, but symbolically, those moments when Jews participated—when Josef Zissels spoke at Maidan, when a klezmer band played, and when a rabbi offered blessings—those moments were symbolically very important. I think Maidan brought together different parts of Ukrainian society in solidarity. And the fact that Jews participated in that solidarity, and that Ukrainians expressed solidarity with Jews, is very important. When the klezmer band played, the audience applauded, and when the rabbi offered greetings, he was applauded. Those are very important moments.

But there were of course Jews who did not support Maidan. Most Jews in Ukraine are Russian-speaking, and live in the east, which is a Russian-speaking region. And I think they were quite afraid initially of Ukrainian nationalism. It brings back memories of World War II, Ukrainian nationalism, and collaboration with the Nazis. So I think a lot of Jews, especially older Jews—and most Jews in Ukraine are older—were afraid, especially of public protests, and disorder. They wanted to stay with the regime as it existed, rather than have some kind of disruption.

There were also Jews—especially Jewish businessmen—who had vested interests in maintaining the Yanukovych regime. So I think there was a real divide there in the Ukrainian Jewish community, until the bloodshed. Until the bloodshed on February 20, 21. And then yet again with the Russian invasion of Crimea—those are two events that have brought together the different factions of the Ukrainian Jewish community.

The Russian invasion and annexation of Crimea has done a lot to unify Ukrainian society, and also to unify Ukrainian Jews. I don't think there are any Ukrainians, any significant number of Ukrainian Jews who want their homes to become part of Russia, or want the Russian invasion and takeover. Even leaving aside Crimea, the issue of Russia's behavior and the Russian threats and mischief, I think that all Ukrainian Jews are united to retain the integrity of Ukraine, and the sovereignty of Ukraine. I don't think there are two sides there.

HG: Let’s talk about the issue of antisemitism. There have been a number of articles, including yours in the Forward, grappling with how seriously we should take claims of rising antisemitism in Ukraine. Are these claims mostly coming from Putin, or does the Ukrainian Jewish community have reason to be concerned? You specifically mentioned the Svoboda Party. How concerned should we be?

DF: I think Jews should always take these concerns seriously. We live in the United States, and, nonetheless, we have an ADL [Anti-Defamation League] that monitors and protests—in other words, I think, given our history, we always have to take any such manifestations seriously. And I think it's important to keep one's eye on what happens in the Svoboda Party, which is not only a radical, nationalist party, but also just plain thuggish and criminal in its behavior. For years antisemitism has been an integral part of their ideology. Certain members of the Parliament in the Svoboda Party have violated the law and engaged in assaults on people, and then used their parliamentary immunity as a way to do it without any consequence. Just a couple of weeks ago, a couple of Svoboda parliamentarians attacked the director of a Ukrainian television station. They weren't happy with the way it was broadcasting, or what it was broadcasting, so they went to his office and threatened him, beat him, and then forced him to resign. That's what I mean when I say "thuggish behavior." These are members of the Parliament. Members of the Parliament acting like common criminals, and getting away with it precisely because they're members of Parliament. It's true that they've largely refrained from antisemitic pronouncements over the last months, but personally I was disappointed and concerned that they were brought into the temporary coalition government because it lent them a kind of political legitimacy.

The only thing that counterbalances that is, number one, they're clever enough tactically to understand that now is not the time for antisemitism, so they're able to restrain their antisemitism, and the other thing to say is, nonetheless—they're not that popular. They're regionally limited to one part of Ukraine, part of the west of Ukraine, and they're not that popular compared to other such movements in other parts of Europe. There are a lot of European countries with right-wing, nationalist movements, and xenophobic movements—it's a pan-European phenomenon. And when you look at it from that perspective, the phenomenon is not as strong in Ukraine as it is in a lot of western countries: Austria, Hungary, France and several others. Also, Svoboda did not get the most responsible positions. Most of their positions are not important, and the people from Svoboda that were brought into the government are not the most inflammatory figures. Again, this is only a temporary arrangement until a new government will be formed at the end of May.

HG: How much representation do Jews have today in the new government?

DF: More than in any Ukrainian government in history. One of the Deputy Prime Ministers is Jewish: Vladimir Groisman. There are at least two newly appointed provincial governors who are Jewish. Most of these Jews are not just Jewish, but they're identified Jews—they have ties to Israel, and ties to Jewish communal life.

HG: What is the state of Ukrainian-Jewish relations today?

DF: Perhaps the simplest thing to say is, the country is divided over its historic memory of World War II, and whom to consider a hero. These historic issues, whether to consider the Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists in World War II heroes or not – that's a very sore point in Ukrainian-Jewish relations. It is very complicated because the Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists was initially with the Germans, and then at a certain point stopped. In 1943, when they stopped aligning themselves with the Germans, they fought against everybody. Meaning, they fought against the Soviets and they fought against the Germans and they fought against the Poles. But throughout they were antisemitic, especially in the early years of the war, in 1941 and 1942, they were involved and perpetrated massacres against Jews. So, for many Ukrainians these people are patriots. They fought for Ukrainian independence against all odds. But of course for Jews—they massacred Jews.

HG: Can you tell us about Josef Zissels?

DF: Like any other country, there are a lot of Jewish leaders in Ukraine, and maybe more than in other countries, there are a lot of Jewish umbrella groups. There are four or five purported Jewish umbrella organizations in Ukraine. But Zissels has a very special position. First of all, I think he really is in a position of moral authority because of his biography. Because he was a dissident under the Soviets, he was in the Gulag—in other words, a man of conviction. He was willing to spend six years in the Gulag only because of his convictions.

He's not representing his personal business interests, as there are other Jewish leaders who are businessmen, and mix their Jewish role with their own interests. He's been active in Jewish life since it became possible to have public Jewish life—in other words, since Perestroika, the last 25 years—and he was one of the founders of the first Jewish organizations in Ukraine.

And of course he is close to the main party that leads the interim government, the Fatherland Party. He supported Maidan, as you know, when it wasn't clear what the outcome of all of this would be. He has always supported that party, even when it was in opposition and had no influence over the course of political events in Ukraine. So now he's really in a position to influence events. I think it's the first time you have a Jewish leader who's got the ear of the Ukrainian government so clearly. And that's very helpful for the Jewish community. He's always been working to rebuild Jewish life in Ukraine, and a very difficult job is to rebuild Ukrainian-Jewish relations. He's a very important bridge—he's a bridge figure between the two communities.

Transcribed by Alix Brandwein. Interview edited for length and clarity.